Shauheen Etminan: From Chemical Engineering to Psychedelics, a Journey of Ancient Wisdom and Modern Science

Sebastien Fouillade: 0:00

Welcome to an insightful episode of Leadershipedelics with our special Shauheen ,Etminan, , co-founder at VCENNA and Magi ancestral supplements. Born in Iran and educated in Canada with a PhD in chemical engineering, Shauheen's journey is both diverse and inspiring. His professional trajectory spans the creation of six startups and two nonprofits, along with his latest contribution in the field of psychoactive neutropics supplements through the unique Magi product line On earth. The deeply rooted knowledge of Iran, the art of extracting potent compounds from plants and how Shao-In applies this in a contemporary context, gain insight into his meticulous process of creating safe, effective psychoactive supplements and his commitment to integrating breath work and meditation into a holistic psychospiritual elevation approach. Join us on this intriguing expedition into psychedelics, ancient practices and entrepreneurial ventures. As we navigate the captivating narrative of Shao-In Etmian's journey, enjoy and see you on the other side. Shao-in Etmian, thank you for joining us on Leadership Adelix today.

Shauheen Etminan: 1:14

Thanks, sebastian, for having me. It's nice to be on your podcast, yeah, speaking to your audience.

Sebastien Fouillade: 1:21

Thank you. Well, we've been talking back and forth for, I think, the last I don't know it feels like forever the last two, three years, and it's been really a joy just seeing the evolution of your business and your projects and how much of your heart and your spiritual aspect you pour in your work. You really embody innovation, resilience and a lot of the qualities that I think people will be interested in learning from, and you're really curious about your journey, starting with your journey and then talking about your current project.

Shauheen Etminan: 2:10

Absolutely. Thank you so much for all the kind words. Yeah, I guess this. I guess the first time that we touched base was back in 2020, if I'm not wrong, it's almost becoming three years. Yeah, yeah, I guess, like many, many other players in this space, my journey with psychedelics started not many years ago.

Shauheen Etminan: 2:36

It was about 2000, maybe late 2016, that I had my first ayahuasca experience in California, in a more Californian setup, and just that opened the doors to realizing that there is other things that you can tap into consciously Because we always have that moments that through meditations or through other modalities, you can realize that there are parallel universes or there are realms outside this physical reality.

Shauheen Etminan: 3:22

But when you do it intentionally, through a ceremony, especially with a group, which the community plays also an important role that was basically the journey started with my ayahuasca experience In 2000,.

Shauheen Etminan: 3:40

I would say 2018, late 2017, 2018, I did a lot of self experimentation with psilocybin mushrooms, and these were all kind of mostly the personal journeys before psychedelic becomes very bold. I would say maybe the March 2020 was the first conference that came out, and I never forget that. It was like the beginning of COVID and everybody was the real experiment on social zoom basically, and then it was zoom and a slack you know, and then that is like group was probably the coolest virtual environment that I had been in a conference with others. But from there I'm today here with I realized that again from cannabis industry which I was working a thing to cannabis very late but I realized that like if you want to be really doing something for good, you have to be there for a long term. I want to open this little bit later, you know, in our conversation, but yeah, that's kind of like how I touch psychedelics in my life.

Sebastien Fouillade: 4:49

Yeah, but you know even before that, you know I was looking at your journey, you know, came from iron to Canada, studied, got a PhD in chemical engineering, like that. You were already showing kind of a drive, right, like there's a certain drive, and I'm curious what your life was like and what was driving you from a leadership perspective before, before the psychedelics, and also interested about your, your spiritual connection at the time, and especially the spiritual, to ancient medicine and if that was there yet or not.

Shauheen Etminan: 5:34

No, ancient medicine was not really part of my my journey until very recently. That grabbed my attention. But, yeah, like, I want to just like have this opening here that the pronunciation is Iran is not Iran For many of my westerners friends, but but yeah, I kind of left Iran in late 2003 to do my grad studies, basically in Canada, and one of the main reason for many of these generation of immigrants like me was the fact that the government in Iran and the narrative of the government in Iran is not matching about 95% of the people. So, and the only way for people to thrive, if they want to have a life that they want to basically play a forward role in shaping it, shaping their future, is to, unfortunately, to leave the country. Yeah, for me, basically, the grad school was the way to to come out of Iran and I came to Canada for doing a masters. I was kind of related very much to energy industry at that point and I landed in University of Calgary in Canada and finished a PhD in chemical engineering 2000, late 2012, early 2013. And with that I, yeah, I was always this person who had passion for working with people in an industry that's nothing to do with people. Yeah, that was probably the challenging, most challenging part of my life, because living in Calgary is like, exactly like Texas. Everything, everything, including art even, is funded by energy and oil and gas. And, yeah, the whole society, the way that it's formed, is very different. It's kind of like there is a source of natural source that's being exploited in a yeah, in a way that not necessarily is the best way, but at the same time, that's the, that's the source for, you know, the, basically the will for economy, for people to live and make a life, and but that was very distant from all my passions. So I think that was kind of like my.

Shauheen Etminan: 8:11

When I was in my PhD, I received a lot of scholarships, you know, and that was helping me to financially knowing that, okay, let's just go all the way to the end, because I kind of, maybe on my second year, I realized that like, I don't really think that PhD would help me, even though my PhD was not very. My PhD was very fundamental physics, which I'm really grateful for that, versus something very applied, let's say, in the industry. But but yeah, I guess, maybe about like the second year of my PhD, I started having a non for profit on the side, and it was not only one. I started non for profit. First. I started a charity. I started, you know, a magazine, you know in Farsi, which was everything was original, working with original like poets and artists and everything. Yeah, that was kind of like a big taking a big chunk of my time.

Shauheen Etminan: 9:07

But I would say the biggest maybe stimulant for that was a divorce. You know that I kind of got married very early on in my 20s with my first girlfriend and then the 27 I kind of like had learned a lot from Mary Asian things that are not working, and so that was kind of like the opening for me to realize that I have a lot to share and I have a lot to exchange with the collective in general. And then basically, my journey is not a very individual journey. Yeah, with that, that's always. I found myself as social entrepreneur who learned from, who got energized with inspiring people to do things, and she's a big group, let's say about 150 to 200 to 200 volunteers that are passionately working toward the project. And that passion and that activation and mobilization kind of like put me into the path that I was into innovation. I knew how to deal with human resources in a way that they feel content and they feel you know, and then that was kind of like the start of my business journey, you know, as a business entrepreneur.

Sebastien Fouillade: 10:33

And would you say you were spiritual at that point, like what was your daily practice, like, did you have room at that point for kind of a spiritual side?

Shauheen Etminan: 10:45

This is a very interesting question. I think the biggest bit probably the opening to my spiritual experimentation was very young, when I was very young you know I was kind of might be odd for a kid, but I think I was eight, around eight that um, yeah, I had this, my own rituals, you know, for going to school, like in a way that I was working on my kind of like my confidence, in a way that I was taking this um like time for myself to go to a room and then meditate and then like kind of connecting to something that I thought that was protecting me, to feel that I have all the tools to um to be the best in school. You know, like that time, probably the measures are that simple it's. It was so funny that I remember that, for example, we had the other kids over, for example, for a party, you know, with the families, and I was leaving the whole kids to have that, let's say, 10, 15 minutes with myself and then coming back because I know I knew that the next day I'm going to school.

Shauheen Etminan: 11:56

I think that was kind of like did some signs of um, like child mysticism, if you call it, and then um, and then I guess it came back maybe my in my early twenties, um, maybe around like when I was 18, 19. At that point I was reading, I was exposed a lot to Persian literature and mysticism and learning about, you know, basically other realms and, um, yeah, I did a lot of readings and writings at that point. And again, you know, going to grad school and in general secondary school, I was disconnect not disconnected, I was always part of me, but, um, I think my after my divorce, that was again another and I think that it's yeah, I've seen that probably in every decade of my life that has come out and, uh, has created who I am today.

Sebastien Fouillade: 12:53

Yeah, I love it. And, uh, and you mentioned other realms, I'm really curious, like so we've. Where are you at now? What is your perspective on, on the world and the other realms, the other?

Shauheen Etminan: 13:07

realms. Well, I think we are living in a full life of distraction and um, and yeah, I guess, if we can be fully present, uh, to have the attention fully in the moment, we totally experienced a very different life. We experienced a life of receiving versus a life of gaining. So everything comes to you versus you go after it, including information and knowledge and wisdom and intuition. So it's all about I think we got at some point, but it's exactly like this cycle that I mentioned. You know about um, my own journey, that I guess, because of this mismatch between people, we always dealing with um, distractions, but, let's say, when we do group meditation or we do anything intentional together, that's our chance at a moment to bring the attention which the attention is a simple, you know word being overused, I think attention is is like basically collecting everything that you can explain about your being, let's say, which are contained with different fields around you, including the fields, the field of thoughts, and having that intentionally present somewhere, including on yourself or maybe with, with a group that you want to be with. That's where the doors to unknown opens to you and that's where the flow, exactly like any other transport phenomenon you get into a field and then you have the potential difference and then the flow comes toward you.

Shauheen Etminan: 14:55

It's interesting my, my whole PhD was about transport phenomenon and transfer phenomenon is a um. It's an understanding about how things you know are are in in the universe, like in the physical universe, let's say, from um energy to mass, to velocity, to electromagnetic, to anything that, anything that can create a field along the field. There is a flow. So, and I guess thoughts is the same, you know, we use the language of energy, we feel this energy, we feel that energy. But me it's more like the thoughts is kind of like when you, when you're potentiated and you are contained in that field intentionally, then you absorb and you are, you are being exposed to that flow of thoughts. That the flow of thoughts is a flow of consciousness that you can process even without having information. And this is kind of like it's been studied and practiced for many, many years, for millennia, by the mystics. We just have forgotten it mostly.

Sebastien Fouillade: 16:05

Yeah, Um yeah, I love, I love where this is going, and so so that was your perspective even before you're. You're working with psychedelics, yeah.

Shauheen Etminan: 16:20

Yeah, I would say psychedelics never really changed my life. Psychedelics was just a confirmation that that exists, that accessible Like it's more like, okay, this is accessible when you want, but it's always accessible. It's always accessible through other practices, but you kind of you get that catalyst to access it and then make something out of it. So that is what, and it depends on what type of psychedelic. It is right, you know, and then that's where we channel. You want to connect to, you know.

Sebastien Fouillade: 16:51

Yeah, yeah. So in your first ayahuasca experience, because of your foundation and your understanding of of the world and the realms and how we can access them with intention and making space for them, how did that? Like were you surprised, you got confirmation. Or like were you able to go deeper, maybe? Like did you feel like you have the tools to work with the plant medicine.

Shauheen Etminan: 17:26

Well, I guess it's all about. To me it's all about it's definitely about intention and setting and setting. But I think to me also, those is the most important part, you know. So if you're not even ready and if not even you don't have that intention and you're in a very even wrong setting, still if the dose is right, you're going to get the lesson that you, you know, you decide.

Shauheen Etminan: 17:58

So I think, with I've never done anything crazy with psychedelics. I've never. I've never done five grams. I got four and a half grams of mushrooms but never got the five you know, with with Transmikiana recommends. But you know, I think to me it's it's. It's just that you know, like that opening of the door is more important than just being exposed to the light, you know, and then not being able to really figure things out of it. So I guess my first Ayahuasca experience, it was again, it was in a Californian setting, very feminine, you know, it was very nice. And to me, I guess what I really the highlights was was the fact that I saw that I died and I decomposed, was decomposed, and and even on that, you know, on that experience it was very scientific for me.

Shauheen Etminan: 19:10

I'm not sure, like maybe just science is a tool that I have. I don't really associate myself to be a serially scientist. I'm a scientist but I'm also other things too. But I could see that, let's say this, this whole journey, you know, to the beginning of time, and even you know the love making between molecules of you know, hydrogen and oxygen that, like, created, let's say, the whole organic matter and then created what you know, let's say, went through the evolution. I had this journey which was very interesting, you know, like I had this realization which is, I think, to me, is all about how much you think, you know, how much you process, like, how much we understand is how much we think and process. So, under psychedelics we just, especially on the tryptamines, we just like we just have this loss of thoughts that are faster, that are more connected, interconnected, and that is how we process more.

Shauheen Etminan: 20:14

Yeah, I guess to me the fascination is mostly coming from that side. But specifically with ayahuasca and this is kind of like what I am also working with well in Visenna with is kind of the presence of beta carbolines, and beta carbolines are opening that dreamy state. That the dreamy state is what you have no control over, right? You don't know what you're going to, what is going to open up to you, and if this is something desirable or it's not, so with that, that is, that's the mysterious, that's the mystical side. That's always been, you know, like making me thrive to do another, let's say another.

Shauheen Etminan: 20:59

You know experience with psychedelics in a way that, let's say, something new is going to open up to me.

Shauheen Etminan: 21:07

But but at the same time I realized that you know, when you're open to to the unknown, where you're open to this kind of like the fast processing or fast processing in a way that it's not coming from your first person, first person view is coming from a third person view, because the first person view is the ego, you know, point of view, but the third person view is like where you are also looking at yourself from outside and that is where we get to understand things very differently. And that's something that you can incorporate into your life even without psychedelics. You can do it, you know, with other practices and, yeah, that's something that I've tried to keep, you know, as part of my daily practice and it's definitely gets, you know. We can, you know, and then you have to just strengthen it again, you know, by some practices or by just sitting by yourself or whatever you know that you can comfortable with. But yeah, that's kind of like how I see yeah.

Sebastien Fouillade: 22:13

Now, that's beautiful and you know, one thing that struck me when we first met is and then you touched on that today is your interest in history and Persian history and ancient practices. And, yeah, I'd love it if you could share kind of your journey on how that led to Visenna and Maggie. You say Maggie, not Magi, right, magi, magi, magi, okay, and Magi. And we can talk more about that, because I have tried your, you know, I've tried your mood booster and I've tried the other one, yeah, in many different ways, and we and I can't wait to talk about that, absolutely yes.

Shauheen Etminan: 23:09

Yeah, I think it's interesting because it's like to me, exposure to maybe history is like I've never been really fascinated with history. I've been fascinated with the knowledge of individuals and I think, specifically like how I came to this whole, you know, let's say, realm of natural compounds or natural medicine was through a company. Back in when I was living in San Francisco in 2018, I was kind of invited to join a company as you know, a basic is a future CTO that was working on cannabis. This is kind of like the late you know the late part of cannabis, before it just like falls down and and yeah, and I, my expertise was around basically just chemical processes and with that I got into extraction technology and I left that company very early, like maybe about after about four or five months, and moved back to Canada and I started building an extraction system for cannabis industry. They thought kind of built my first, first one, just immediately sold it and right after that, covid hit and so basically the 2020 for me was experimentation around working with alkaloids and basically just I moved on from cannabis to other plants. So moving on from cannabis to other plants was basically brought me to looking to some of the ancient, because there's a lot of information from the ancient medicine that they have investigated, have found, investigated, tested these herbs.

Shauheen Etminan: 25:00

You know, let's say 1000 years ago and specifically in Iran and even if, like, even not specifically not only in Iran, even in Europe, like Avicenna was very well known before the modern medicine as the, the modern medicine, as the his books is called. One of them is called the book of healing and the other one is called the Canon of medicine. These are like a two kind of like very important book in Europe in the medicine before the modern medicine comes. And yeah, I remember that that time I had traveled to visit my mom in Iran. I just like thought, okay, let me just like figure who he was really like. And then I traveled to Hamidon and like he's this like crazy. You just read about him, amount of work that he's done is crazy. You can't believe that like somebody in one lifetime can it can have like achieved like such a thing that like you go through, and it's just like one of the book that he has gone through about 400 herbs. And if you go to the book they have like maybe one or two pages about each herbs but it's specific even about cannabis. You know he had, you know, a lot of information. That's like they had distinguished, let's say, sativa from the other one, and the names are different but they're based on colors, but but that was kind of like. For me, that was the vision that it's right. Even the name Avicenna came from that. Like I thought, okay, like I want to really build a, an AI version of Avicenna in the 21st century, and that was why I dropped the AI and then Visenna came out. So that's how the name actually came out, and and then, yeah, I guess, and then the rest of the journey was I worked a little bit on cannabis.

Shauheen Etminan: 26:50

Cannabis is one of the simplest plans to be extracted because the, the active compounds are outside on the leaves. You just basically wash it out. But when it goes to other plants specifically the alkaloids that are smaller molecule you have to really like get penetrate into the body of the plants and then free those from the matrices of the plant and then and then select the one that you want to take out. And that was how I actually worked around psilocybin mushrooms and then like a few other plants and and yeah, there's always, there was always this book, so I was looking back into, okay, what they did, you know, like a thousand years ago.

Shauheen Etminan: 27:30

But but, in general, what I, what we did, you know, with Magi and the extraction about this plan, the span that was coming actually from the ancient time of Iran. It was actually the inspiration came from looking into ethno pharmacology and mostly, you know, being inspired by Dennis McKenna, and and that was how I actually dug into many of the ancient texts to just see, okay, what was this, what was that? And these are very recent. It's about maybe about two, two and a half years, but yeah, but just like one opened the other one, the other opened the other. I kind of like feel that I am on a journey that goes through me. You know, it's not like I am, like I know that what I'm doing, like I just like things are being exposed and I'm happy to share that with with the world.

Sebastien Fouillade: 28:24

No, this is great. So about you know? No, I like the distinction of ancient knowledge versus history that you call out. Where do you find all those texts? I mean, like, I'm curious, like part of me is picturing you traveling to your own and you know, like, like going to like all libraries and dusting off like original editions of the text, and then you know, studying that carefully is like Eureka, but it's probably, you know, less romantic than that.

Shauheen Etminan: 28:59

So this much less Well. You know, like anything about ancient time in this current like, iran is a very complex country that is misunderstood even by its own people. You know like it's not only by the westerners or like by other people around the world, but but none of these. It's very difficult to find any of these in Iran. You know like it's it's. Mostly the reason is because the religion has changed in Iran. It's been a disconnection about, you know, let's say, 1400 years ago, from the most of the ancient knowledge that was before Islam in Iran and that was like this was this whole very mystical philosophy, the Zoroastrian philosophy, like kind of like that age to around like 3500 years back in Iran. That from that community there is only about there are saying it's about only about 200,000 people left in the world, and these 200,000 people they're all mostly like very religious. They are not really connected to the philosophy or to the many of these mystical, like little things. And then and then the revolution in Iran, which is again an Islamic revolution. That was again another, you know, invasion on many of the mystical practices, because the current narrative is all about Sharia, which Sharia is basically just. You just have to follow, you're not asking any question. You're not experiencing God, which is like in Iran, like most of the religion, which has been a lot of religion, actually came out of Iran. They're, most of them has been experiential, like Sufism is an experiential path, you know, like Zoroastrianism was an experiential path, is the none of them were a religion, like a dogmatic religion that you have to really follow things but the new, but the revolution in Iran and the shop before.

Shauheen Etminan: 30:56

You know, I think, when he was rich, maybe in that like last 10 years of his, his time, like he actually funded a lot of scholars in the West to dig into many of these ancient texts and these are like on different language, or French, their Italian language, many of them that are not, they don't even exist in English and many of them they don't even exist in Farsi, you know, for us to be able to process. So, yeah, I don't really think that. I'm sure that there is going to be a lot of information in Iran, but it's not. Everything is very obscured, nobody talks about. These are my like the religion minorities that are not able to express themselves freely, unfortunately. And yeah, I guess I was actually. I guess what I've worked on today and why would I have access to is actually the work of most of the Westerner scholars that I'm indebted to, to that who actually brought this knowledge. They documented that and it exists now in some levels for me to be able to process and access to.

Sebastien Fouillade: 32:06

Well, it's still a very interesting journey. I mean, like the history of how the knowledge could transfer. I think it's, like you know, really amazing that it survived through all the revolutions and changes in power and so forth. What are some of the things you picked up? Or you really stood out that, like rituals or you know, like that also led to digging deeper in certain substances. And you know, I'm kind of leading the way to talking about your current products.

Shauheen Etminan: 32:47

Yeah, one of the things that was very interesting was that there has always been a substance on the site.

Shauheen Etminan: 32:57

It's not that like any of them, if any of the, let's say, if I part, like kind of, there is this before Islam, you know, which I think is the identity of Iranians. They are not really Muslim. They're not Muslim Muslim. There are, there are Zoroastrian Muslims, and it's kind of is very crazy because there's a lot of when you carry a, I think it's like kind of like a collective mind, when you carry something that long that, let's say, you celebrate no rules or you celebrate almost of our national celebrations. There are all Zoroastrian celebrations, even though, let's say, the country is now even before. Before this revolution it was a Islamic revolution, it was a Shia Islamic revolution. But so both on before Islam, like during the Zoroastrians, and after Islam, there has been substances being used by mystics. So in most of the cases they have been only within elites. It's never been like ayahuasca that everybody was exposed to, you know, or let's say, the community members, and over exposed to even ayahuasca. I've heard that there were only, let's say, the shaman originally who was taking it and then was opening these channels to the other mediums but but specifically about Zoroastrians there is there's Rastrians. A holy book is called Gotha or Avesta. The Avesta is like more extended, but there are two or three chapters in Avesta about Homa, which Homa was, this potion that was psychoactive, and there is kind of like they're talked a lot about how, on their home or what you feel. What was the subjective experience, what was the physiological experience? And and I would say like I want to mention actually the name of two people here one of them is David Flattery, which is a actually an ethnopharmacologist. He hasn't been active for many years but he actually he and his colleague Martin Schwartz, who is actually an Avesta linguist. They actually wrote a book called Homan Harmaline back in 19,. I think 79 and 19, sorry, 1989,.

Shauheen Etminan: 35:15

That they actually went through all these texts is one of the most valid studies, that they went through the ancient text to open up many of these, let's say, narratives or referrals and then how they were related to this, let's say, psychoactive compound. And, for example, you see that you know that there are referrals to Zahustra, who was the founder of this rastrian philosophy, that he actually received his revelation in a dreamy state. He actually wakes up and then he is still. I feel that I'm still in this dreamy state. So these are very physiological narratives.

Shauheen Etminan: 35:57

And then there are even names, there are even terms for the subjective experiences, for example the name of the start. This is an old Avistan term, you know, it's not far sea. Start means to have your consciousness spreading out. It's exactly like how you meditate on a very deep meditation. That's why, actually, we chose that. It's very interesting that there are names, there are words that they explain a subjective experience.

Shauheen Etminan: 36:30

And so they knew exactly, basically, the magi, which is the plural of mogus, we can far see called them moa, so they were the priests of pre-zorastrian and zorastrian time, that for many years they had these, you know, techniques for having access to ecstatic states, and they were very intentional, they were within themselves, they were within the magi and they were like, kind of like inviting people. For example, at some point, for example, they invited the king of their time to take this to open his eyes about, let's say, the other realms. And then there were, let's say, stories. There's a whole book about this, called the book of Arda V Raz, which is probably the earliest you know, like the trip report. So the whole book is a trip report. It's like an 8,000 words that if you go through it it's a trip report. It's available actually on Google as well for free, so the whole.

Shauheen Etminan: 37:36

There's a book about the first chapter of this that it explains that, let's say, the magi invite a person you know, basically they just go through a draw, they invite this person to send him to the other realms. Somebody who is not a who's, not a mogus, who is not a priest, like from from regular people, to go to the other realms to check that their, basically, their practices are, like you know, are to the right gods, you know, that kind of like the check they were checking with the other realms and then come back and then shared with other people and their referrals, let's say, to the these fire temples and these are all real. So the whole story is real and so this book is, specifically, is the most explicit referral to taking, you know, let's say it's the name the number of the cops like he drinks, three cops.

Sebastien Fouillade: 38:30

I was going to ask you if the does. It was even in there.

Shauheen Etminan: 38:34

So that's actually the picture on top of my LinkedIn as well. So this is kind of like actually somebody in, I think, in 17 and 1990, 90, like just do an illustration on this whole book, one of I think he's like a parcy's rastrian, so actually it's called the move to India. Actually he translated the whole thing into far see and then he makes it very like. It makes this illustration about the journey of Arda Vira's, which Arda means the righteous, so he was the righteous person. I think this is also a distinction that not anybody can go to the other realms and bring the message. He has to be a person who is trusted by community, who is the right person, who is chosen, and then he has the seven days out of body journey that he goes and he brings the message. Seven days.

Sebastien Fouillade: 39:25

Wow, it's like a vision quest.

Shauheen Etminan: 39:28

Yeah, and it's very interesting because, like during the seven days, there's all these chanting the hymn. It's exactly like ayahuasca journey. They chanting the hymn of Zahutra. They're just like having fire by him all the time to keep his body warm. So these are the story on the book and so you see that, like there it's about like the same time this is about, let's say, I think it's not, this is not very ancient. I think about maybe the 300 AD. This is during the Sasani time, but they were still like participating on these, and then the whole thing is forgotten. If you even talk to Zoroastrians today, none of them. I've actually reached out to at least maybe four or five Zoroastrian priests in Iran, in India, in Sweden, just to ask about these psychoactive compounds and, like the answer is very interesting, all of them say I don't think I can help you with this. That's interesting.

Shauheen Etminan: 40:33

It's like I just want to add something Seb like, and then after Islam, like after Islam and during the Sufi time, I think most the substance changes because the homo, the botanical identity of homo, that was never mentioned at that time what it was, because it was different things. But I think after Islam and then mostly during the flourishing of the Sufi time, which was a lot of poetry and a lot of philosophy, cannabis, hashish and cannabis was you know what they were allowing and helping these mystics to.

Sebastien Fouillade: 41:07

let's say, to go deeper, and yeah, it's almost like the people you reached out to. I would think you'd be part of a community of experts through the world who exchange the stories and that knowledge and you reach out to people who you would think have some of that knowledge and can help you, and it's almost like that. There was like multiple war on drugs or, you know, like things that have kind of erased history, and I mean it happened here in the US too with the war on drug and, you know, erasing some of that history and us, you know like the distancing, wanting to distance ourselves from the substances. I'm curious, like so, when you were researching all this, how did you go from there to formulating your supplements? And like I'm sure it's a fascinating journey. You don't go just like, yeah, it's all written in here, let's just throw it in there and oh, it works, that's wonderful, yeah.

Shauheen Etminan: 42:20

Well, this is a, as you said, it's a journey, Like it went from one thing to the other thing. Um, so there's two scholars that so the the Homa. Homa, it was a potion, and even Homa has different referrals. For example, there is in one story, like there is, they called, they called Homa like man, or they called man of Vishitas, which Vishitas was the name of the king. So even at that time it was not like I was God that they add different additives. It was not only one thing, you know it was it would, based on the situation, I think, the Magi or the priest, they were offering different psychoactives. You know, for that context, and I'm sure that, like your listeners, if they have heard about Homa, they've also heard about Soma Soma and Homa they were the same thing within the, you know, let's say, the Aryan or Iranian, before they separate into becoming. You know, basically the landing on the land of India and the land of Iran, and then only the pronunciation is different. It's exactly like Hindu and Sindhu. You know, like they are the same, same differentiation, but but I can say that, like there's, for example, there's a book by about Soma, you know, by Robert Gordon Wasson. You know that he believes that Soma is Amanita Moscarea mushroom and there's a lot of critiques about that.

Shauheen Etminan: 43:47

But the whole point is that there is, there was not like Soma Homa was not a plant. Soma Homa, they were potions, they were mixtures, they were extracts and they're and it was not always one one botanical, you know, let's say, source, they were mixtures. So the name Homa or Soma is there specifically, like I'm working on Homa specifically because there's more information, there's more documentation about Homa, because Rigveda was transcribed 1000 years before Avista and there is a lot of metaphor in Rigveda. So that's why I and the other thing is that the flora, which is the plants, or you know, the scene of the plants of Iran and India is very different. Iran, north east of Iran, is very dry versus India, is more like green and so they were using different psychoactives and they were just inducing on these different altered states.

Shauheen Etminan: 44:45

But but in general, what I found through these texts and I trusted that was the fact that these, everything about these referrals are something around falling sleep or it's in a sleepy state, it's in a dream like state, and none of the tryptamines create that dream like state. They are just like make you, you know, very alert and you're thinking, and all of this, so it was not a DMT, it was not a psilocybin, it was not. It was something that was different. And looking at specifically, like the whole book of Homan Harmalin, David Flattery, who is actually alive and who's also an advisor of mine he in his book he believed, basically for the first time he comes out and he says that, like among everything else that people think is including Zoroastrians, because Zoroastrians believe that the plant is ephedra, which ephedra effect is very, very much like ephedrine, is very much like some amphetamines, very much like MDMA.

Shauheen Etminan: 45:56

But MDMA effect is basically it just reverts sleep, it doesn't allow you to sleep, it's like a dreamy state. So the whole thing, you see that even within the context of this Zoroastrian pantheon, this has changed. Like they basically replaced another plant which the effect is not, you know, matching the referrals in the books. So the only thing that actually matches that is this plant called a span or Syrian Roo or Paganam Harmalah, which is very widely growing in Iran and it has the same alkaloids as in the bark of banisteriopsis copy which exists in in ayahuasca brew. And so that is where the you know where the mystery comes from.

Sebastien Fouillade: 46:41

So that was, was that? Did you figure that out? Or you know, did you have a ha ha moment and it's like like, how did that? You connect those dots?

Shauheen Etminan: 46:52

I had this, like I had this little. Basically, I had this lab that I was extracting everything and I remember I shared these, maybe early 2020, to one of the VCs in this space that I brought my extract of Paganam Harmalah, but at the same time, I was reading the book. You know, reading the book, I was learning and but I hadn't worked with it, with the compounds. So what we did was that these compounds are legal. They are not scheduled in the US, so we started extracting and isolating them and and then, basically, in 2021, I think this was the, the, maybe the year after we talked for the first time we did it to drug discovery, which natural compounds, and that was the year that we did a lot of clinical studies and including us as guinea pigs, which this is a very extensive like study. This is like it's not like a clinical study that you come up with a formulation. This is like an experimental design with 27 points of dose and and compound, like, say, different combination of dose and compounds, and we went through all of those and we collected a lot of biomarkers, including brainwave, heart rate, sleep pattern. Sleep pattern was the most you know like enlightening piece of information about, like how it affects sleep. So, based on those, we were trying to actually bring a, like any other companies in the space, basically push, you know, for an IND, get to a phase one, for a very niche indication that we thought that, like a, that's, that's what we want to work on.

Shauheen Etminan: 48:33

But then it was 20 last year, last summer, that we did decide that okay, you know, this is probably a very risky area for us to raise and get to a 500 million. You know, like, exactly like many other companies in the space, let's just see what we have and then bring those that are not as scheduled into market. And so beta carbons are not as scheduled and and then I guess beta carbons and mysticism they have a. There's something between these two. So that's why, actually, we started to look into some of the practices that allow you to tap into to the realm of unconscious, to the unknown. That's where, actually, the meditation actually I made the meditation supplement and the lucid dreaming. So those are the active, the active practices that allow you to basically to surface your consciousness to the unconscious. So, yeah, that's kind of like how the path went to where Magi came out.

Sebastien Fouillade: 49:36

So before we get to that and I really want to share my experiences there, before we get to that I'm curious when you were using yourselves as guinea pigs, like, I'm sure it's different when you do clinical trials, you need to have guardrails and boundaries and have it pretty safe. And maybe when, when you're doing it on yourself, you've got a little bit more leeway of exploration, are there some experiences that stand out where you're like, oh shit, I shouldn't have done that. Or like, wow, this is awesome, but we could never release that because not everybody could do that and the dose would need to be too high.

Shauheen Etminan: 50:21

Well, absolutely, you know. But you know, I remember, like John, my partner, like when we started just basically just defining these doses, I made them all half, you know, like it was really a high and but yeah, they were. What we did was that we start. It was like the two of us we went through the whole thing, you know, but we had a lot of volunteers from our friends that they wanted, let's say, to join us on a single, you know, study, and yeah, I remember that one of them we actually had an Airbnb here in Borscht Bay in BC and yeah, there were five of us, or maybe three of us. So, yeah, five of us, and, and usually my body, on beta carbolines I'm not sure what it is First of all, I always, like, I always throw up.

Shauheen Etminan: 51:15

It's not. There's no single time that you know I can skip that. And and when I throw up, then I basically the journey goes to the next stage, you know, so they were, for example, I think we started maybe around 2pm. They were done by 6pm and I was still high by 1am, you know on, and it was just going to the next and next and next and, and it's very interesting, like on, for example on this specific formulation you know like, and then we had found these zones that let's say on, if you are, for example, you're on the first zone, your body still is trying to digest and react and the second zone is where you are having that like more steady experience.

Shauheen Etminan: 51:59

And, for example, on zone two, if you were doing breath work, then you were getting again back to zone one. You know like. It's kind of like you can always also play with it. You know, with some of the some, some practices, specifically with breath work and meditation. But yeah, I remember data specific journey. I think we even had an encounter with another being. That was probably my the craziest experience that I had and and so those are like really higher doses.

Shauheen Etminan: 52:33

I was gonna say yeah, and then we, and then we kind of like we knew about like a lower dose. We also did. We started with the lower doses and then we went higher and then for each of them we had like a trip report about how we felt, what we saw. It's a little bit, it's a little bit difficult, but I'm happy that my, my co founder and I are I think we're doing very different things, like he's very alert and he's able to sense and measure when he's on trip and I'm that person that I really like let it go to be able.

Shauheen Etminan: 53:08

Because when you are witnessing yourself, when you're a third person, then you're not really going. I don't think that you're really going through the whole process, but when you're just like let it go, then that's the difference. But then you have to remember to be able to document what, what was happening. Well, anyway, it was very difficult because I guess for about maybe six, seven months, that we were working really hard to raise and to just have all these elements of going in front of investors and everything. Let's say you're working like six days a week and on Sunday morning we were doing the experiment, so every Sunday, so, but at the same time, like you get to this zone that, like you know you are, you feel like you're a little bit above the earth.

Sebastien Fouillade: 53:57

That's awesome. And then on Monday you start again with the investors. Yeah, you probably need to be a little bit above the earth and in that zone still and have that glow. I'm sure it helps. That's wonderful. So, okay, now how do you take this and and when? You that knowledge, your journals, the notes you took, and craft the perfect formula that, when you craft it, what is the intent that you set? For people will consume it because you can't do the really high dose, and then you can't do it too low, and then you have to make it work for most people, knowing that everybody is different. How do you approach that?

Shauheen Etminan: 54:48

Yeah, I guess the best. The first thing is coming from toxicology. So you know exactly like how much of these compounds on a regular, let's say weight, body effect like, makes what type of effects. And then let's say and then the other thing is drug, drug interaction, and then the safety zone, like I guess we have some perception about the effect ourselves, let's say, based on this much milligram. But then there is also, you know, like you know, there's also toxicology studies, that this is one of the paramount studies that we did know with the third party.

Shauheen Etminan: 55:21

Toxicology is to just realize that, okay, this is the safe zone for us to go out, let's say, with different, putting different compounds together. So most of the formulations that we have outside, they're all combined formulation, they are not single, there's not single compound. And even though on our, for example, on our, let's say, the bottles, it says that as a supplement fact, it says that this is the, for example, this is this extract. So what we do is that we extract it to an API grade which is like about 99%, 99.5%, and then we have all the extract and then we recombine them on our formulation. So every formula that we have it's not a botanical extract which makes it, let's say, non-consistent from one dose to the other. So they're all the same. But so the intention was.

Shauheen Etminan: 56:24

I think I also had a lot of experience with micro dosing. You know like the term micro dosing in general from psilocybin, and what's micro dosing is? They call it the sub perceptual, but I don't really think that like it's really sub perceptual. But we were actually discussing this with Paul Austin about like a sub perceptual versus sub intoxicating. You know, like sub, you still like have something, you know that like there is this boss in your body but it's not intoxicating. So there are, there is this sub perceptual, which we call them micro dose. And then we created this mini dose, which is sub intoxicating. So you feel it, but the feeling is not very strong.

Shauheen Etminan: 57:08

So we thought that, starting with these two, which are very safe, like from a toxicology point of view, to a subjective experience, it allows us to enroll people to have these experiences, even though they have never had a psychoactive experience, because they're very one of the things actually, like you go to bed, which is like the lucid dreaming. So lucid dreaming, you are lying down in your dream. Basically, you are very awake in your dream. And then the other one, which is our meditation supplement.

Shauheen Etminan: 57:42

I think the idea mostly came from the fact that our baseline to study most of our brain waves, heart rate, everything was meditation mode. So, because you have to be able to compare your data to a baseline data, and many of the again I would say mystical practices, many of it's this meditation, it's chanting, it's a zikr, it's whirling, it's anything that you mentioned, like that they do, you know what's happening to your brain wave, like it's kind of like this elevation on your alpha and gamma together it's only gamma. So we thought that let's just focus on meditation, which we know. We have a lot of data and we know how this makes a difference on a very contained and, let's say, known dose. So that was how actually these came out.

Shauheen Etminan: 58:37

But our intention was in general, around the fact that I, both of me and my co-founder, we really believe in personal practices, mindfulness practices. So this is the path to psychospiritual elevation. This is what we miss in the whole world. Like they are, our brain is not only the intellectual side, like now we're talking a lot about, let's say, the psycho, like psycho, the psychology and maybe psychological disorder, but it's not only that. There's all this psychology and spirituality. They're kind of like intertwined with your intellectuality. So yeah, I guess the product is actually for a holistic elevation. So on every level, I love that I love that.

Sebastien Fouillade: 59:29

You're touching. I was looking at the bottle, the little writing you have on the bag. It's the start meditation. I believe one and I like that you bring up rituals in there, because that's a big deal. I think a lot of people is like, oh, I'll just take a substance and do whatever, but like doing it with a ritual, that's the whole set, and setting makes a huge difference. So I'll share my experience now with stars. So I've tried it many different ways.

Sebastien Fouillade: 1:00:05

The first time I tried it I just tried one dose of it and I woke up at five in the morning and went to my meditation room and burned some frankincense and which that always helps, and then started to go in my practice and I could feel it was very gentle and it really took me more just to that space. It's almost like it was bringing maybe I woke up too early, but it's almost like it was bringing a lucid dreaming aspect in a very gentle way to the experience and that continued after the meditation, kind of like through the morning, through my morning practice, and that was wonderful. But the next time I did it and there's no, but really the next time I did it the next day is I woke up earlier at four in the morning, and I did two doses and that completely put me out. But then the whole family fell sick. So I think it was completely unrelated, but it completely put me out, but I don't think it was the dosage. And then I did another one. Actually, recently I thought I was like, oh, I'm gonna try in the middle of the night I'm gonna wake up, and it was like two in the morning, like one or two in the morning, because I've got a friend with micro doses with Iwaska this way. And I woke up at two in the morning and took one dose and went back to bed. Like I didn't leave my bed or anything, just like got up enough to drink something and I swallowed the supplement. And it was amazing. I mean I usually have lucid dreams, but like these were like lucid, super lucid. And then another thing I did on the first one is I went to do an inversion on the inversion table after I got it, which was wonderful. When I came back up everything was moving around on the ceiling, which doesn't usually happen when I do an inversion. And the last experiment I did with it was before going to bed. I saw like before a full night where I took that and I had plenty of lucid dreams through the night, which was just wonderful. So that was the start, the meditation supplement.

Sebastien Fouillade: 1:02:49

And then I tried your mood booster as well, and that one was fantastic. I'm hoping you didn't put any coffee derivative in there, because it's always like some of those that always trick you with that, and so I either put some sugar, green tea of coffee derivative and I'm like, and all of a sudden, so I took it in the morning and I knew exactly when it kicked in and it was like I do microdose of psilocybin and it's a completely different feeling. This is a very clean mood boost and it wasn't over energy, too much energy, it was just the right amount. So the mood booster I feel like you really nailed that. I mean, both of them they're fantastic, but the mood booster was nice and clean and yeah, so you know, glad to hear all these.

Shauheen Etminan: 1:03:51

At this point, we are receiving a lot of cup reports and feedback, and these are very amazing. It's nice to hear these authentic sharings about these experiences. I think you have the microdose too. I would love to hear when you said that.

Sebastien Fouillade: 1:04:08

You know it's always for me it's always making the time and aligning the stars, because I want to be very intentional about it and I do have the microdose and I'm just waiting for the right time to try that. There's always a little bit of anxiety that I have Whenever I'm going to put something in my body from my experiences working with plant medicine. Sometimes they can be challenging, sometimes they can be kind of like hey, you have to face this, you have to face that, so I want to be ready when I'm going to take the bull by the horns, potentially, yeah well, I think, the distinction about the beta carbolines and I am also working on an article about this.

Shauheen Etminan: 1:05:00

I think beta carbolines are kind of known mostly as monamine oxidase inhibitors. Where were you talked to? They said, oh, they are MAOIs. And there's so much fascination about DMT and tryptomins in the psychedelic space. But I see that the attention turns toward beta carbolines Because even in ayahuasca I was very lucky to went to Amazon late in April and just basically just getting involved with the indigenous people to make ayahuasca for the same brew that we drank that night.

Shauheen Etminan: 1:05:40

And there are always this question that how these indigenous people found this bark and these leaves and then how these two made this. But when you're there you understand that it's not like that. It was the bark, it's the bark. The bark is the thing. They had the bark, they extracted it, they just hammered the bark and then they add other things to it. They add these additives, they add the other additives. One of the additives was chakruna leaves and then probably that was the one that became famous. But there are also other tribes in Peru or in Brazil that they add other things. For example with Santadime. They just add the leaves. So we were just basically adding the very thin layers of the bark when you were just hammering it, because that's going to extend the surface area to extraction. And then they put the leaves on top and then there is another layer of the bark. But the whole fascination is about the bark and about the beta carbolins.

Shauheen Etminan: 1:06:44

So beta carbolins are not only monamine oxidase inhibitors, they are actually. Our research has shown that they are actually binding to another group of receptors called imidazolin receptors, that the imidazolin receptors. They're very limited to studies on this topic, they're very understudied, but what they do is that they induce this hypnotic state. So the hypnotic state is what puts you in that dream-like state. And what is interesting about the dream-like state is where our consciousness, our conscious mind, get in direct touch with the unconscious. So that is why ayahuasca experience is different from DMT experience. That's why anything that adds this into it's not like it potentiates my DMT experience. It's a beta carbony experience. That DMT potentiates that experience. That's how I am actually processing it, and I'm not sure if you saw it or not, but I guess last week there was a paper coming out about the unraveling of an Egyptian potion from the remainder of a cup, like an ancient cup. Yeah, so that also included beta carbons. So if you're looking to Egypt now Egypt, iran and Meswa, america what is the denominator is beta carbons and they are all this mystical bruise. So they were taking these bruises to have access to the realm of after death, the realm of unconscious, and in Iran there was no DMT source. In this potion there was no DMT source. It's all about what the beta carbons actually do and allow you to access to, and I'm sure there's going to be more studies. We are very excited to work toward that too.

Shauheen Etminan: 1:08:39

But in general, I think there is this intertwined with an understanding of the unknown. Let's say, specifically in America and I remember I got this course in Silicon Valley like part of Silicon Valley, about the hero's journey there's an ample how you jump from the known to the unknown. So we are sometimes in life you choose to do that, you choose to take a leap of faith and then you're exposed to the unknown. But this is really intentionally going to open yourself to the unknown. I guess we need this practice more and more because that reminds us that we have the control of the very minimum part of our lives. There's so much unknown that we are just like we're not even conscious about them. We don't know what is out there, and this was part of the mystical practices in many religions and many traditions around the world. We just I think we got two our egos got too confident that we think that we are on top of our even DMT experience.

Sebastien Fouillade: 1:09:49

Have you thought about maybe using those substances in higher doses and ceremonial settings and having a more optimized set and settings for people to really take advantage of them?

Shauheen Etminan: 1:10:04

Yeah, yeah, I think we are launching our macrodos in Denver next week and so with the macrodos, it's very intentional. It actually comes with a very detailed explanation about how and direction, about what you have to do and what context it has to be taken. I would say it's always good to these practices to be, let's say, done it's especially for those people who have experience with psychoactives to be done in their own, you know, solitude, in a way that they know what it comes out. And then the other part which is very interesting is the collective part. Now, the collective part was actually my observation from the Santo Daimiro Church, you know, which is like a hundred years old religion that is engineered. The whole thing is engineered around like the collective experience.

Shauheen Etminan: 1:10:55

It's not you take ayahuasca in a you know, let's say, in other settings, and then you lie down and then you go through your own journey. But when you are with Santo Daimiro you're dancing for six hours on ayahuasca, which I thought that's impossible, because usually my body is really like sick and I'm throwing up. But you are kind of like you put something on top of your personal experience and that's where the consciousness is like overlaps, it gets outside your field of thoughts and beings and it becomes more collective. I think this is something that we I'm specifically very interested in. I'm doing some experimentation to see that what is the best and most reverent way to bring it out, and I guess, yeah, we'll just see how it goes.

Sebastien Fouillade: 1:11:47

That's fantastic. I'm looking forward to that. I can see you know either bringing some tradition. I'm not even sure what if music and how music would be used, because it's like does it in higher doses. Do you experience similar reactions to music as you would with psychedelics?

Shauheen Etminan: 1:12:08

I think music is more like. Music is what contains you through that Like you know that there is this vector, there is this axis that you're attached to and it's going forward. I guess to me, music or even chanting, they're all like that, so for you not to lose the track of where you are, like with time and everything. But the type of the music and I guess the other thing which was very interesting for me is actually like movement and chanting. Movement and chanting takes it to the next level and, for example, with ayahuasca, again Santodima has it, but for example, with other mystic traditions, you know we have a whirling or we have like some zikr that they also move their head. So there's always these elements that they potentiate you when you are on that meditative state.

Shauheen Etminan: 1:13:02

But yeah, it's all open for experimentation, but the whole thing is that like, as I said, it has to be, yeah, it has to map every element about the experience. And then I guess the most beautiful way is actually like to honor. I guess this is where I really like to merge all the mystical tradition together, because there always, always business like Sufism and Judaism and, you know, like Zoroastrianism and Buddhism and like people are. This is again another way to separate people. But when there is this secular mysticism that you can just sit together, regardless of like the practice you can share, you know, like again you're filled with thoughts and mind, that is, I guess, to me, that's the next curation that has to come through a collective mystical approach. Yeah, it's wonderful.

Sebastien Fouillade: 1:13:58

Yeah, sign me up. I feel so interested in how you're going to bring that to life with that journey is going to look like and, as you were talking, I get that vision of a beautiful ceremony and I think it's going to be amazing. So what's next for you? I mean, you've got the conference next week. Yeah, what are your upcoming plans?

Shauheen Etminan: 1:14:26

Yeah, I think the conference is going to be very big for us because it's all about, yeah, we are, we are not known by many, just like just putting the brand out and that we exist is one way to get more feedback, and so the other thing that we always take on is actually getting more feedback to make some of these formula even more effective, or like work around, maybe adding another, you know, elements, or so we are launching.

Shauheen Etminan: 1:14:56

Next week we are launching our first macrodos, which is called the revelation. So it's a revelation, eight, actually, and yeah, and then we have two more macrodoses that comes. One of them is called yeah, they're we have chosen different names or them is more around like epiphanies, you know, and but the whole point is around conscious transpassing planes of consciousness in a way that, like you absorb, you receive information that we have that ability, you know, inherent in us. That, if you are, how can I say, like, if we are aligned with whatever is running the space that we have in the space that we are in? You know we are aligned with whatever is running the space that we are in. You know we are aligned with whatever is running the space that we are in, and so we are launching our next plus, our new formulation.

Sebastien Fouillade: 1:16:05

Okay, do you have a if people want to be part of that community? Do you have a location right now? Is that coming soon?

Shauheen Etminan: 1:16:14

I think beside magi. You know like, yeah, I guess we're going to announce it, probably like around some more events in September, but yeah, I'm already working on those.

Sebastien Fouillade: 1:16:23

Okay, oh, that's that's. That's wonderful. I don't want to. I don't want to let you let the cat out of the bag before the cat is ready to come out of the bag, I guess. Okay, I'm looking forward to that. For people interested in macro dose, what recommendation like if you had three recommendations to make to them on, you know, proper use of the macro dose and also what they could expect.

Shauheen Etminan: 1:16:51

So, in terms of ordering, I think it would become available on our website starting with the conference day I think it's 21st and or maybe after the conference. We, yeah, we're going to have those available in the conference. If they are coming to Denver, they are booth numbers 726. So this is going to coming after the. This episode comes after the conference, but that's going to be available.

Shauheen Etminan: 1:17:17

But in terms of expectation, so we asked them not to, you know to fast, if they can, about like 12 hours before taking the. The dose, how many hours? 12 hours, yeah, maybe, just like, let's say, don't take anything from the night and then also, it's good that they don't have any, they don't take any. Process. Food is exactly like live, like I was, because we have tested. It's very, it's very safe. But just in case there's always this outlier in a person with different physiology, that these are coming on the, you know, on the manual off that comes with with the, with the compound. But in terms of expectation, it's, yeah, the best ways just take it and lie down or just sitting in meditative state. And so the effect, if I'm going to like explain a little bit about the effect you know, on when you are face, for example, taking LST or any any tryptamine based supplement or you know, psychoactive. They are like after a while, when they kick in, you feel like from the, from the way that you think differently. You feel that you know that it's starting, but with these, the fill a little bit numb, like you feel. You feel that, like you don't have your energy, but the best way is not to try to actively do anything, it's just, it's it's turning your monkey brain down. It allows you just to be present and perceive and receive. So that is, that is a tool for sharpening intuition, that's the tool for opening to, to the flow of knowledge to come towards you and love knowledge come to us, know, in when we fall asleep, specifically in a REM sleep. This is kind of like being in a REM sleep when you're awake. So that is why, for example, our you know, the lucid dreaming supplement does the same thing, but you're mostly awake when, when things are happening. So they are not as sexy as tryptamines but they're very deep and I would say this is this is that perpendicular direction that ayahuasca adds the safety.

Shauheen Etminan: 1:19:39

To compare ayahuasca to any type of, let's say, dmt, you know experience alone. We recommend that like they don't mix our macrodos with any other supplements and specifically, they have been like, yeah, people are doing crazy things, they're mixing ideas. I guess if a report of a death of somebody who had mixed five MEO with beta carbolines so these are five MEO it's still like it's very dangerous, like just mixing it with something that initiates it, it's just like it's a responsible move. Yeah, yeah, so the again, the intention is is for us to sit still. It's like an extension of meditation. Somebody who took this was was telling me that this was like getting directly to this day seven of a vipassana meditation. So looking at that, look at it as that, as a, as a mindfulness experience, that is, yeah, it's like a catalyst for you to open up to whatever is out there that we we don't know about.

Sebastien Fouillade: 1:20:45

That's great. How much time should they allocate for that experience?

Shauheen Etminan: 1:20:49

You know, I think I've seen people going from three hours all the way to about maybe five, six hours.

Sebastien Fouillade: 1:20:57

Okay, great. Well, I'm excited to try when I align the stars and I will share my experience with you and share it with the community here. And, who knows, by the time this episode comes out, I might have tried it by then and add that trip report at the end of the interview.

Sebastien Fouillade: 1:21:19

Well, where, where can people what, what's your website and where can people learn more about you? And if they're going well, the, by the time this comes out, the conference will be passed, so I'm sure it will be a success and this this could come out around September, so, you know, you might even have the community aspect up at the time.

Shauheen Etminan: 1:21:45

Absolutely yes, if they want to find us. The brand is called magi is MAGI, and the URL, the website, is called ancestral magicom. Ancestral magicom and our products are available, they're legal in the United States and they can order, as would be delivered to their address, and so we answer all the questions. If they have any questions specifically about the products, know they just there, can go to our contact us page on ancestral magicom. And if they want to, let's say, many of the question that comes to us is about, let's say, I'm on this anti-depressant, can I take it? I'm on the other no drag, can I take it?

Shauheen Etminan: 1:22:27

So for those, we are communicating with our medical team and then, as much as we know, because many of them you don't really know much about them, is just very experimental. But if we don't know, we don't recommend them. So but we answer all the questions and if they want to reach out to us, you know like I am like accessible on LinkedIn. Just search my name and I would be happy to connect. And yeah, for, for any collaboration and if this conversation, like many of the other conversations that, sebastian, you have had and inspired so many people, if it inspires anybody we would love to connect with and collaborate hopefully.

Sebastien Fouillade: 1:23:04

Wonderful Well, thank you so much for for your time today and for sharing your knowledge and wisdom in your journey. I really appreciated it. Thank you, my pleasure.

Shauheen Etminan: 1:23:17

Thanks for your time, thank you.

Sebastien Fouillade: 1:23:20

Thanks for listening. If you like the show, please subscribe to it on Apple podcast. Follow me on Instagram at leadershipadelics, or stop by my website and say hi at fooyatcom. That's f o y ad. There's a lot going on and I'd love to hear from you all the listeners that tune in every week, and and if you have suggestions for future guests, don't hesitate to reach out. I'm there and I'd love to get more guests on the show. Thank you, have a great day.